On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Jan Gunsterwrote:
Hey Nate.
Thanks for such a lengthy reply! It was a good and honest read and I really enjoyed it. Its good to hear back from an actual has-been christians. Those are hard to find where I am from, let me rephrase; christians are hard to find. Although it may sound weird, I don't know a single person that is 'openly' christian. That includes my fellow students, friends, family, everyone. Maybe some people but don't tell anyone, scared of ridicule. So its nice to chat with someone thats actually been a christian.
I so have many more questions for you but these few have been aching in the back of my head for the last 10-or-so hours.
How do other christians around you see yourself?
I have yet to see a Christian walk up to me and call me anything other than Nate. This is not because they are nice 'Christians' but simply because they are nice people, regardless of their belief.
Do they dispise or pity you for loosing faith?
Again, I have yet to be confronted by unkind words relating directly to my belief. One of the many problem I have with religious people in general is that they believe that I will burn in a fiery pit for all eternity simply because I don't believe in what they believe.
I was born and raised in a Christian family therefore I once worshiped a Christian God.
If I were born in India I would be worshiping a Hindu God.
If I were raised in ancient Greece I would be worshiping Zeus.
If I were raised in Denmark during the times of the Vikings I would be worshiping Thor.
If I were raised in ancient Egypt I would be worshiping Ra.
I so happen to be born in the United States where Christianity is the biggest religion in this country. Does this mean, because of where and when I was born, that everyone who does not worship the god that I was raised to believe in should perish in Hell?
"When you understand why you do not believe in other gods, then you will understand why I don't believe in yours." -- Stephen F. Roberts
Have you made other christians curious in losing their faith aswell?
Sixteen percent of the United States is either atheist or agnostic, it may be a minority, but it is a BIG minority. I do believe that many people call themselves Christians because they were raised into believing that. A great number of these people haven't prayed, worshiped, or gone to church in years, nor have they ever read the Bible. These people simply just believed what they were told, no questions. I personally believe that it is impossible to convert someone other then myself. They are ultimately at the helm, they must steer their own ship.
Another thing thats been bugging me for a very long time is; why doesn't the christian community drop the old testament alltogether? They'd say: "okay sure, creation is silly and the old god (the really nasty one) we don't like. We're christians so we believe in the teaching of christ, and not some old collection of myths." Most of the old testament is tossed aside anyway (leviticus law, to name one). I don't understand why they need the old testament, it doesnt really add anything but ignorance. All the 'moral lessons' and Jesus' teachings are in the new testament anyway. So before making this the longest question ever; I should rephrase: why do christians need the old testament?
To be honest I have not read the Old Testament, however I know of it. The Old Testament was written during the Bronze age when people believed the Earth was a flat plane, the Sun revolved around the Earth, and that it was alright to stone someone to death for committing certain sins. Leviticus law, in particular, talked about sacrificing animals so that God could forgive their sins. The Old Testament talked about a merciful God that would send one straight to hell for merely questioning his existence. The new testament talks about a loving and caring God that loved all of his 'children'. Both testaments show that God is a very jealous god and that he does not want you to even acknowledge another divine presence other then himself. If he is so mighty and powerful, then why does he have such petty human behavior?
So thanks for reading, again. And I hope to hear from you soon!
Again, thank you for these thought provoking questions, I hope to hear from you soon.
Jan Gunster
Wednesday, March 25, 2009
Tuesday, March 24, 2009
Why I lost my faith Part 1
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Jan Gunster om>wrote:
Dear Nate,
I hope I'm not bothering you with this email. But I found your adress on a blog where you state yourself as a christian that's lost his fate. Not let me tell you abit myself, Im a dutch student who grew up in world without religion, I know that may sound weird, but the first time I heard about religion was when I was about 14, in history class(the irony!) and the first time I met a christian was when I was 16. Ever since Ive been fascinated with all forms of organized religion.
Now since there are no christians around me that I can talk to or ask questions, especially those that have lost their fair, I have some honest questions for you, it would be really cool if you could take the time to answer them;
What made you loose your faith?
I have many reasons why I lost my faith, the tipping point, however, happened in my freshman year of college. I was taking an ancient civilization class and upon studying ancient scriptures I came across a reading about an Egyptian god, Horus. The scripture was dated 1280 b.c. and explained that the god Horus was born from a virgin, baptized in a river, healed the sick, walked on water, was followed around by 12 disciples, and was also crucified. Three days after his crucification he was discovered by two women and announced tothem that he, Horus, was resurrected. Keep in mind this happened more than a millennium before Jesus was born. Upon further research I've found that many other 'gods' have lived a very similar life such as Mithra of Persia, Krishna of India,Bacchus of Greece, all of these people were born from a virgin on December 25th and lived before Jesus was born.
I've learned to view the world with a rational mind, something that most religions condemn. I have read through the Bible and many of the stories in there almost seem like a fairy tale, to no offense. For example Jonah who lived in a fish for three days and somehow made it out alive, or Adam and Eve talking to a snake in the garden of Eden. Talking snakes, really? Much of the earlier civilizations blamed lightning and natural disasters on the work of God himself, condemning the people. These days we can easily explain how an earthquake, or a tornado, or even a hurricane is produced.
A surprising number of people have asked me about morals and ethics. They ask me how do I maintain my moral being without a bible in my hand. I firmly believe that morals and ethics are built into our DNA. If you look at the animal kingdom you can see that when a gorilla is sick or injured, other gorillas of that so called family will go out and bring back food for the sick one. A good example is the split in modern Christianity. A good portion of Christians condemn gays and lesbians, the other half condone them. In the Bible you can find verses that are both condemning the gays and condoning them, ultimately it is up to the person to pick one way or the other, that my friend is the morality built into our DNA.
Another big reason, sorry that I am taking so long to explain, is the overwhelming evidence not necessarily against my previous faith, but not parallel to it either, if that makes sense.
How does one explain the numbers of dinosaur bones found around the world dated to be millions of years old, when the Bible states the Earth and the universe is only 6000 years old? How does one explain atoms, molecules, neurons, viruses, bacteria, radiation, photosynthesis, condensation, gravitational pull, etc. all which is bound by physics, and still believe that this Earth is not run by common Earthly principles, but by magic? These are only a few reasons why I cannot believe in a benevolent almighty figure and maintain my sanity.
As a christian, what did you think of non-christians? Athiests in particular.
When I was a Christian I believed that my religion was right and that anyone who had a belief different from my own would perish in Hell. Very selfish indeed. This is a BIG problem I have with religion in general. If one worked for a company that said "Who ever doesn't agree with our company policy can burn alive in a pit for all eternity!" wouldn't that person quit that job, I know I would.
Now that you have lost your faith, how do you see the christians around you?
I have many Christian friends and family members. I do not have any intentions on trying to convert them. If a person truly believes in what they believe, then it is nearly impossible. They are the only ones that can choose what they ultimately believe.
From a very personal standpoint, however, I am scared of Christians. In order to run for any office in the United states you have to explain to the public how Christian like you can be! The fact that our current president and all previous presidents have openly smiled about the second coming of Christ and the apocalyptic end to the human race and they HOPE it is in their life is very disturbing, seeing that the president is the only one with the nuclear code that could make their thought a reality.
Do you feel you have wasted your time being a christian?
Not at all. I am a very open person and a strong believer in"Knowledge is power". I am happy not just to learn about Christianity, but to learn about all religions and belief. I am happy that I got to see what the inside of a church looks like. I do believe the the Bible and the Qur'an have beautifully written stories and are great sources of poetic scripture, but I do not take them in literal terms.
Do you feel more empty than before? I, for one, would love to be a christian, because when life has me down, all I have to blame is me. Thats an awful feeling, christians can look at god and take solice in the fact He has some kind of plan for them. That must feel nice. But I digress.
It is easy for one to believe in someone to put their thoughts to, an imaginary friend of sort. I can fully understand, for example, someone in prison saying "I have nothing in here but Jesus." It is human nature to find comfort in dire circumstances. Recently a Pilot has been sentenced to 10 years in prison for praying not to die instead of taking proper emergency steps to land the plane as safely as possible, 16 people died. Our mind is able to do many things that are beyond our reach including fabricating voices in our head that seem to talk to us when we are down. Believe me, I know that it is my head and not a godly figure, because I can give that voice any accent that I want. Another example is the 'Afterlife'. Humans want to believe that there is a life aside from the one that they our living right now. It is easy to believe that there is an afterlife because it is comforting to us, all religions before the Christian crusade believed the same thing, human nature.
An reply would be greatly appreciated!
I want to take a moment to thank you for these questions, they were very thought provoking. This is only a glanceof what I truly think about religion. I am glad that we can have a healthy exchange of thoughts. Please feel free to ask more questions, and to give my email to other curious people like yourself. Thanks again.
Thanks in advance,
Jan Gunster - All the way from the Netherlands.
Dear Nate,
I hope I'm not bothering you with this email. But I found your adress on a blog where you state yourself as a christian that's lost his fate. Not let me tell you abit myself, Im a dutch student who grew up in world without religion, I know that may sound weird, but the first time I heard about religion was when I was about 14, in history class(the irony!) and the first time I met a christian was when I was 16. Ever since Ive been fascinated with all forms of organized religion.
Now since there are no christians around me that I can talk to or ask questions, especially those that have lost their fair, I have some honest questions for you, it would be really cool if you could take the time to answer them;
What made you loose your faith?
I have many reasons why I lost my faith, the tipping point, however, happened in my freshman year of college. I was taking an ancient civilization class and upon studying ancient scriptures I came across a reading about an Egyptian god, Horus. The scripture was dated 1280 b.c. and explained that the god Horus was born from a virgin, baptized in a river, healed the sick, walked on water, was followed around by 12 disciples, and was also crucified. Three days after his crucification he was discovered by two women and announced tothem that he, Horus, was resurrected. Keep in mind this happened more than a millennium before Jesus was born. Upon further research I've found that many other 'gods' have lived a very similar life such as Mithra of Persia, Krishna of India,Bacchus of Greece, all of these people were born from a virgin on December 25th and lived before Jesus was born.
I've learned to view the world with a rational mind, something that most religions condemn. I have read through the Bible and many of the stories in there almost seem like a fairy tale, to no offense. For example Jonah who lived in a fish for three days and somehow made it out alive, or Adam and Eve talking to a snake in the garden of Eden. Talking snakes, really? Much of the earlier civilizations blamed lightning and natural disasters on the work of God himself, condemning the people. These days we can easily explain how an earthquake, or a tornado, or even a hurricane is produced.
A surprising number of people have asked me about morals and ethics. They ask me how do I maintain my moral being without a bible in my hand. I firmly believe that morals and ethics are built into our DNA. If you look at the animal kingdom you can see that when a gorilla is sick or injured, other gorillas of that so called family will go out and bring back food for the sick one. A good example is the split in modern Christianity. A good portion of Christians condemn gays and lesbians, the other half condone them. In the Bible you can find verses that are both condemning the gays and condoning them, ultimately it is up to the person to pick one way or the other, that my friend is the morality built into our DNA.
Another big reason, sorry that I am taking so long to explain, is the overwhelming evidence not necessarily against my previous faith, but not parallel to it either, if that makes sense.
How does one explain the numbers of dinosaur bones found around the world dated to be millions of years old, when the Bible states the Earth and the universe is only 6000 years old? How does one explain atoms, molecules, neurons, viruses, bacteria, radiation, photosynthesis, condensation, gravitational pull, etc. all which is bound by physics, and still believe that this Earth is not run by common Earthly principles, but by magic? These are only a few reasons why I cannot believe in a benevolent almighty figure and maintain my sanity.
As a christian, what did you think of non-christians? Athiests in particular.
When I was a Christian I believed that my religion was right and that anyone who had a belief different from my own would perish in Hell. Very selfish indeed. This is a BIG problem I have with religion in general. If one worked for a company that said "Who ever doesn't agree with our company policy can burn alive in a pit for all eternity!" wouldn't that person quit that job, I know I would.
Now that you have lost your faith, how do you see the christians around you?
I have many Christian friends and family members. I do not have any intentions on trying to convert them. If a person truly believes in what they believe, then it is nearly impossible. They are the only ones that can choose what they ultimately believe.
From a very personal standpoint, however, I am scared of Christians. In order to run for any office in the United states you have to explain to the public how Christian like you can be! The fact that our current president and all previous presidents have openly smiled about the second coming of Christ and the apocalyptic end to the human race and they HOPE it is in their life is very disturbing, seeing that the president is the only one with the nuclear code that could make their thought a reality.
Do you feel you have wasted your time being a christian?
Not at all. I am a very open person and a strong believer in"Knowledge is power". I am happy not just to learn about Christianity, but to learn about all religions and belief. I am happy that I got to see what the inside of a church looks like. I do believe the the Bible and the Qur'an have beautifully written stories and are great sources of poetic scripture, but I do not take them in literal terms.
Do you feel more empty than before? I, for one, would love to be a christian, because when life has me down, all I have to blame is me. Thats an awful feeling, christians can look at god and take solice in the fact He has some kind of plan for them. That must feel nice. But I digress.
It is easy for one to believe in someone to put their thoughts to, an imaginary friend of sort. I can fully understand, for example, someone in prison saying "I have nothing in here but Jesus." It is human nature to find comfort in dire circumstances. Recently a Pilot has been sentenced to 10 years in prison for praying not to die instead of taking proper emergency steps to land the plane as safely as possible, 16 people died. Our mind is able to do many things that are beyond our reach including fabricating voices in our head that seem to talk to us when we are down. Believe me, I know that it is my head and not a godly figure, because I can give that voice any accent that I want. Another example is the 'Afterlife'. Humans want to believe that there is a life aside from the one that they our living right now. It is easy to believe that there is an afterlife because it is comforting to us, all religions before the Christian crusade believed the same thing, human nature.
An reply would be greatly appreciated!
I want to take a moment to thank you for these questions, they were very thought provoking. This is only a glanceof what I truly think about religion. I am glad that we can have a healthy exchange of thoughts. Please feel free to ask more questions, and to give my email to other curious people like yourself. Thanks again.
Thanks in advance,
Jan Gunster - All the way from the Netherlands.
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